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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:56 am
by PCStuff
Ahh great to see Cat is back for more. Absolutely loved his An Other Cup CD. Fabulous musician that brings back all those wonderful memories from earlier era. Just placed purchase.

Too much irrational hate to bother with this thread, but the head's up is appreciated, Russell.

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:28 pm
by Rob
PCStuff wrote:Too much irrational hate to bother with this thread

:lol: :lol:

You're right, PC. Kevin's irrational hate saturates this board. We've tried to banish him but he keeps returning. MB, she's the queen of mean. She'll rip your head off. And me, I plead exceptionally guilty to the charge. I'm irrational, hateful, mean-spirited, didactic, etc., etc.

:roll: :roll:

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:43 pm
by sfboy
PCStuff

Sorry, but I have to object to the "irrational hate" tag. If other people can forgive and forget, more power to them, as I said earlier. And I didn't call for his death (as he did of Salman Rushdie). I just said I wouldn't support his music (which, I have to say, isn't very hard because I'm not that into his music) :)

But I do have a question to pose. Mr. Rushdie's life changed drastically after the death threat was made. He cancelled appearances, travelled less, and if I'm not mistaken, had to hire security. If this had happened to someone you know, or even, for example, a musician that you really like and who put out a song that others felt was blasphemous, would you feel differently about supporting someone who publicly stated that they should be killed? I don't really think of my decision not to support such hate as hateful. I think of it more as a strong response to extreme censorship.

As an aside, the 10,000 Maniacs covered Peace Train on their In Our Tribe CD. In later issues of the CD, they had the song pulled. So I guess I'm in good "irrational hateful" company.

Finally, if you read my previous post on this, I think you'll find it respectful of other people's views, and I really hope that in the future I can be afforded the same respect. For me this board is a refuge and I really appreciate the fact that people can disagree here and not get nasty (which I hope I haven't done).

Thanks.

Kevin

PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:37 pm
by outta
I second Kevin's emotion!

This thread is interesting -- I don't think it's been hateful. People are expressing their views and I've learned a little something from all of them.

There are a lot of people who can't forgive Hanoi Jane. Why? They had their reasons. We all have our reasons for feeling the way we do.

Aren't we constantly evolving and changing emotionally as well as physically? My question is serious. Life changes us. We're influenced by those with whom we surround ourselves. Don't most people go through phases of uncertainty about life in general? I think that's completely normal. If you're in the public eye, however, you can't go through a phase unnoticed.

I love Cat's music. I know little about his new cd, but I look forward to listening to it.

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 5:12 am
by Rob
Nicely put , Kevin.

And I don't think you're saturated with irrational hate.

As anyone can see, that's Theresa's department.

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:13 am
by Turk
Rob wrote:Nicely put , Kevin.

And I don't think you're saturated with irrational hate.

As anyone can see, that's Theresa's department.

Surely you jest, Roberto.

I saw Yusef on Leno one night last week. That's the name he prefers now, just Yusef. He sure looked and sounded good, as did his band. All dressed in modern Americanized clothes. The only problem I had was that the song he sang sounded tired and mundane. It was the title song Roadsinger. All musical talent aside, I really don't care for his hypocrisy at all.

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 11:43 am
by Rob
Turk wrote:Surely you jest, Roberto.

I am totally serious (lying through my teeth). Theresa has been 100% trouble since joining this board. Which is better than I can say for you. By current calculations, you're at 123.74%.

Alright, I'll deduct .74%.

From Theresa.

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 12:04 pm
by Arlene
To quote the great Tom Lehrer: " I know that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!"

(Another of my favorite Tom Lehrer quotes: "I wish people who have trouble communicating would just shut up. ") :wink:

PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:54 pm
by outta
Rob, you're a little punchy! I think that's a sign that you're on the road to recovery! 8)

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:37 am
by marybeth
Well-spotted Theresa! And all joking aside ya know we love you dearly I hope!

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:51 am
by PCStuff
Here's my logic to claiming this is irrational hatred being spoken...and I chose my words intentionally. Hatred is by definition, irrational. It is a negative emotion, and very few emotions fit into a category of being rational. Just ask Spock.

I see the anti-Cat views spoken here as exactly the same, but opposite side of the coin as of the "right wingers' who spoke hate about the Dixie Chicks after Natalie's crack against Bush. There were similar droves of destroying their CD's and protests against their career and being able to enjoy their music. The opinions in this instance are just different, and internally justified...but the result of irrational hatred of someone is the same. It is the essence of racism, bigotry, and irreconcilable differences.

A person who is rational, and not motivated by hate would be able to compartmentalize an aspect of an artist's expression that they don't agree with, and not paint the entire person/artist with the broad brush of hating everything about them, including their beautiful music.

Applying your logic to a friend who has some opposing political, religious views that you feel strongly against would mean that you would similarly have to irrationally hate 'their entire package.' To me this is the definition of irrational hatred. Personally, I find most artists have liberal political/social viewpoints that I believe are naive, little understanding, even dangerous and harmful. But I love and listen to their music.

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 2:13 pm
by sfboy
Thanks for the clarification. I feel slightly better :) This will be my last response. I have listened to music of people whose political opinions differ from mine. I like Nanci Griffith, for example, even though I disagree with a lot of her politics. Ditto Stevie Nicks. For me, it's not about differing political opinions. It's about calling for someone's death. It's about making a credible threat on someone's life. And I never said anything about "hating" them. Again, I said I wouldn't buy their music. For me, that's very different.

With regards to the Dixie Chicks, I agree 100% with what Natalie Maines said, but I completely support the right of people who didn't buy their music or didn't go to their shows after that, even though it seems to me that the complaint people had against them (not patriotic enough, not supporting your country in a time of war) is much less serious than saying that you agree that someone should be assassinated. I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a liberal/conservative thing. He said that someone should be killed for having written a book. It's not a small personality quirk or a political opinion in my book. I completely agree that it would be irrational to stop buying music of everyone who has differing political opinions, but at least for me, this goes way beyond that. I apologize for posting again, but for some reason I really feel like I don't want to misrepresent myself. If he's spoken out against the Satanic Verses and left it at that, I don't think this discussion would be happening. But he didn't.

As far as being rational, I have to disagree. Religious oppression has had a direct affect on my life. I can't get married because of it. So I actually think that it's quite logical and rational of me to fight it, in all its forms.

OK, I'm done. Sorry for belaboring this point (says Kevin, as he climbs down from his soapbox...)

Kevin

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:17 pm
by Rob
PC:

Yours is purely a straw man argument. No one said a thing about hating Cat Stevens. Not me, not Kevin, not MB, not Turk. If you can find where we express what remotely could be termed hatred directed at Cat, I'll eat a hat.

As for the Dixie Chicks, the huge difference between Cat and Natalie Maines is that Natalie simply stated she was ashamed that Bush was from Texas. She never talked about killing him. That's a Grand Canyon of difference. And some of those reactions were definitely full of irrational hatred.

I think if you'd just called us irrational without tying it to hate, we might have had a discussion. But you keep proffering that we're somehow guilty of irrational hate. It clearly isn't the case and I wish you'd acknowledge as much.

As Arlene's signature says:

"The first rule of holes: when you're in one, stop digging." -- Molly Ivins

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:37 pm
by outta
I wonder what Rush would say about Yusef? Or Coulter? Or Franken? There's little to no rational logic to most of their tirades. They abuse their political power, but most of us will abuse power in some form or fashion, at some time or another. It's done daily. That's doesn't make it right. That just makes it a realistic part of life. Any one ever fudge on their income taxes? (I'm raising my hand!)

Kevin, do you really need a marriage certificate? That's a piece of paper ... there's no love on the dotted line ... the love is in your heart.

Marybeth, I'm blowing a kiss your way!

PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 4:14 pm
by Arlene
If I didn't know better :wink: I'd suspect that PC Stuff is someone on the "right" who looks to find alleged hypocracy on the part of individuals on the "left," even when the facts at issue don't in any way support that conclusion.

I went back and reread this thread in its entirely. I see absolutely NOTHING which would justify the conclusions expressed in PC Stuff's two posts in this thread.