Downtown Church - the unified discussion thread

Talk about Patty to your heart's content.

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Postby TontoBronto » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:46 am

Russell wrote:
Tonto Yoder wrote:Is this a joke? Did you forget the little :wink: ?
.

Definitely a joke - that's the reason for the last sentence. ...

Sorry, I guess I need BIGGER clues. :oops:
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Postby Browncoat » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:19 am

I haven't quite come up with a coherent opinion on the record yet. When I first listened to it, my reaction was quite negative. But I've most definitely warmed up to it significantly. Though I would certainly agree with Arlene that it's my least favourite studio record from Patty.

That said, it's not far and away my least favourite. I'm actually starting to like some of the heavy gospel numbers a lot more than I thought I would. "Move Up" has most definitely grown on me and I think "The Strange Man" is a lot of fun. I've been looking forward to "If I Had My Way" for a long time now and I think I'd like it more if the backing vocals were done by Patty's band (a la "Getting Ready").

"All Creatures of Our God and King" is interesting. It's a beautiful sounding song, but I have to listen to it without listening to the lyrics in order to enjoy it. Just a touch too religious for this heathen. I don't know why the religion gets to me in this song - I really like "House of Gold," "Move Up," and "The Strange Man," for instance. Does anyone else find that Patty's vocals just sound different on this song? Not bad, but not Patty.

I don't particularly care for "Never Grow Old." And I desperately wish "We Shall All Be Reunited" was more upbeat - it had a great feel when it was performed live. I never listen to "Virgen de Guadalupe."

"Little Fire" is easily my favourite song on the record and will consistently be on my Patty mixes from now on. And I love Emmylou's vocals on it. I love a lot of "Coming Home to Me." But I actually find Julie Miller distracting, starting with "When you get to that..." And one of my pet peeves in music is when verses, melody and all, turn into "lalalala."

As far as "I Smell a Rat" goes, I really don't know why it's on there. But I like the song and I think it's a lot of fun, so I appreciate it.
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Postby Russell » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:06 am

Tonto Yoder wrote:
Russell wrote:
Tonto Yoder wrote:Is this a joke? Did you forget the little :wink: ?
.

Definitely a joke - that's the reason for the last sentence. ...

Sorry, I guess I need BIGGER clues. :oops:

It is nice to know that I haven't lost my ability to get people to take me seriously when I take a highly questionable position.
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Postby TontoBronto » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:04 pm

I'm somewhat surprised no one has picked out "Death's Got a Warrant" as a favorite. It caught my ear on first listen and I continue to enjoy on successive plays. I realize it's a serious subject, but I find it fun to hear.
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Postby keith from ny » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:18 pm

LOL, you picky f***ers! (and of course I mean that in the most affectionate way) Y'all should just be grateful we have a new Patty album to listen to instead of... I dunno, having to settle for harmony vocals on A Friend of a Friend. ;)

This will probably be my least favorite Patty album too, but only because it has the fewest originals and she's an incredible songwriter. In terms of vocal performance and instrumental arrangements, I think it may be her best. I think the song selection is fantastic, and as of now there are no tracks I'll be likely to skip, but that's true of all Patty's albums (and emphatically does NOT apply to 90%+ of the CDs I own). The only song that strikes me as a little dull is Never Grow Old, but Patty and Buddy sing so nicely together that it carries the track for me. I don't like Virgen de Guadalupe quite so well as Mil Besos, but it's pretty and I have a soft spot for Spanish love songs -- possibly because I was having sex so often while dating a girl from Peru.

I don't have any issues with Emmylou's contribution to Little Fire myself, but I think it's really the producer's responsibility to decide how prominently to feature a secondary vocal regardless of who is singing it. Don't blame Emmylou!

Personally I like Coming Home To Me even better than Little Fire. The arrangement is more interesting, I've always loved Julie's ever-so-slightly-off-key little-girl voice for harmony vocals, and IMO it's hard to overstate the emotional impact of some really good la la's -- Lucinda's Out of Touch and Over the Rhine's Latter Days come to mind.

If you just aren't moved by traditional gospel call-and-response type arrangements, I guess a lot of these tracks aren't going to do much for you. Speaking for myself, I find it impossible not to bounce in my chair with a big grin on my face whenever Move Up or The Strange Man come on and I think ALL the tracks featuring Patty with the McCrarys are totally fabulous, including the appropriately stark Death's Got A Warrant.

I think I Smell A Rat is a great little blues song and Patty totally nails the Big Mama Thornton attitude while making the song her own. No problem for me having it on this album, just seems a little out of place (Russell's tortured argument notwithstanding) but Patty may have been thinking it would be more out of place on an album of mostly originals.
Last edited by keith from ny on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Russell » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:28 pm

keith from ny wrote:Speaking for myself, I find it impossible not to bounce in my chair with a big grin on my face whenever Move Up or The Strange Man come on and I think ALL the tracks featuring Patty with the McCrarys are totally fabulous, including the appropriately stark Death's Got A Warrant.

You speak for me as well. I couldn't have said it better.
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Postby Kelsea » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:54 pm

Say it Keith! Ok fair warning I am about to climb onto my soapbox for a usually longwinded review, but I don't mean any offense to anyone. I may be the overly jovial Downtown Church fan of the group but I am fine with that. I can see how if gospel does not appeal to someone personally, it would be harder to enjoy this cd. I was raised on gospel so that genre and world has always been a huge part of my life. So let me say the gospel songs on this record are true gospel through and through. Anyone who listens to The Strange Man (especially), Move Up, Death’s Got A Warrant, Wade In The Water and Waiting For My Child knows this woman has gospel in her soul. And for Patty to perform those numbers with such energy, vocal power and passion on an album shows she truly knows and belongs in this genre.

Regarding the gospel discussion and I Smell A Rat, a lot depends on what you’re going to consider gospel. I personally think there is a fine line between black gospel and Christian, spiritual or religious music. That’s just me. I thought I would mind at first, but leave it to Patty and Buddy to come up with a way to include such a diverse and inclusive array of song selections. So when I look at DC I split it into two sides (gospel and spiritual/ religious). I don’t think gospel can be so narrowly defined as a genre. If you feel it you feel it and a lot is about intent. When I listen to Little Fire, Coming home To Me and Never Grow Old I don’t think gospel or religion, but if they are intended to be spiritual then that’s what they are. Soul and blues songs are naturally accepted alongside gospel. So I suppose whether I Smell A Rat is gospel can be debated, however I don’t think there is any question that it fits perfectly within DC.

Other thoughts on DC... This might be the most fun I have had listening to a new cd since I first discovered Ms. Griffin. I think this is far and away Patty’s best vocal performance on any album. I also feel this is the only type of album that would allow her to be completely inhibited and free. But again to me that is the essence of gospel; energy, confidence and inhibited vocals. I will be the first to say I enjoy DC more than Silver Bell, Flaming Red and Children Running Through as a whole. There are no songs I skip and there are several I get stuck hitting repeat on. Plus this is my dream album. I cannot listen to The Strange Man without getting up and dancing and I could listen to the first 5 seconds of Move Up a million times. I don’t get hung up on the originals aspect, but I can understand it. I’m sure Patty plans to do a cd of originals soon and lord knows new songs have a way of popping up before a release. I am so glad Patty did this album, I feel it was a special work for her and it is special to me. I have a feeling that Downtown Church will mark a turning point for Patty’s music. For the record The Strange Man, is one of the better gospel tracks I have heard in years. This is no small feat. When Downtown Church comes out I’m going to bring some copies to a few of the churches I’m familiar with and send a few along with relatives. The songs that stand out the most to me are The Strange Man, Move Up, Coming Home To Me, House of Gold, All Creatures of Our God and King, Never Grow Old and Death’s Got A Warrant. For some reason Sister Act pops into my head everytime I hear ACGK lol. I can’t say enough about Patty's voice on this cd. It might not be what the average folk festival crowed expects (I say that as a part of that crowed), but from a gospel and specialty album standpoint this is 5 stars. To me DC shows that at her core Patty Griffin is a master at all genres and styles, but more specifically she has gospel and soul in her bones. The only small disappointment I had was We Shall All Be Reunited, I liked the tempo and energy much better live. And I guess it was wishful thinking to hear Patty cover some of the bigger names and songs of the genre. However the song selection was amazing and I think she was overwhelmed enough with Mavis.
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Postby mattimus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:50 pm

I was going to hold out until the release date for this, but with all these split opinions I think I'm about to cave. I can't wait to listen!
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Postby marybeth » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:26 am

Kelsea wrote:Say it Keith! Ok fair warning I am about to climb onto my soapbox for a usually longwinded review, but I don't mean any offense to anyone. I may be the overly jovial Downtown Church fan of the group but I am fine with that. I can see how if gospel does not appeal to someone personally, it would be harder to enjoy this cd. I was raised on gospel so that genre and world has always been a huge part of my life. So let me say the gospel songs on this record are true gospel through and through. Anyone who listens to The Strange Man (especially), Move Up, Death’s Got A Warrant, Wade In The Water and Waiting For My Child knows this woman has gospel in her soul. And for Patty to perform those numbers with such energy, vocal power and passion on an album shows she truly knows and belongs in this genre.

Regarding the gospel discussion and I Smell A Rat, a lot depends on what you’re going to consider gospel. I personally think there is a fine line between black gospel and Christian, spiritual or religious music. That’s just me. I thought I would mind at first, but leave it to Patty and Buddy to come up with a way to include such a diverse and inclusive array of song selections. So when I look at DC I split it into two sides (gospel and spiritual/ religious). I don’t think gospel can be so narrowly defined as a genre. If you feel it you feel it and a lot is about intent. When I listen to Little Fire, Coming home To Me and Never Grow Old I don’t think gospel or religion, but if they are intended to be spiritual then that’s what they are. Soul and blues songs are naturally accepted alongside gospel. So I suppose whether I Smell A Rat is gospel can be debated, however I don’t think there is any question that it fits perfectly within DC.

Other thoughts on DC... This might be the most fun I have had listening to a new cd since I first discovered Ms. Griffin. I think this is far and away Patty’s best vocal performance on any album. I also feel this is the only type of album that would allow her to be completely inhibited and free. But again to me that is the essence of gospel; energy, confidence and inhibited vocals. I will be the first to say I enjoy DC more than Silver Bell, Flaming Red and Children Running Through as a whole. There are no songs I skip and there are several I get stuck hitting repeat on. Plus this is my dream album. I cannot listen to The Strange Man without getting up and dancing and I could listen to the first 5 seconds of Move Up a million times. I don’t get hung up on the originals aspect, but I can understand it. I’m sure Patty plans to do a cd of originals soon and lord knows new songs have a way of popping up before a release. I am so glad Patty did this album, I feel it was a special work for her and it is special to me. I have a feeling that Downtown Church will mark a turning point for Patty’s music. For the record The Strange Man, is one of the better gospel tracks I have heard in years. This is no small feat. When Downtown Church comes out I’m going to bring some copies to a few of the churches I’m familiar with and send a few along with relatives. The songs that stand out the most to me are The Strange Man, Move Up, Coming Home To Me, House of Gold, All Creatures of Our God and King, Never Grow Old and Death’s Got A Warrant. For some reason Sister Act pops into my head everytime I hear ACGK lol. I can’t say enough about Patty's voice on this cd. It might not be what the average folk festival crowed expects (I say that as a part of that crowed), but from a gospel and specialty album standpoint this is 5 stars. To me DC shows that at her core Patty Griffin is a master at all genres and styles, but more specifically she has gospel and soul in her bones. The only small disappointment I had was We Shall All Be Reunited, I liked the tempo and energy much better live. And I guess it was wishful thinking to hear Patty cover some of the bigger names and songs of the genre. However the song selection was amazing and I think she was overwhelmed enough with Mavis.


Well said Kelsea, and I learned something too!
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Postby keith from ny » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:31 pm

Kelsea wrote:Regarding the gospel discussion and I Smell A Rat, a lot depends on what you’re going to consider gospel. I personally think there is a fine line between black gospel and Christian, spiritual or religious music. That’s just me. I thought I would mind at first, but leave it to Patty and Buddy to come up with a way to include such a diverse and inclusive array of song selections. So when I look at DC I split it into two sides (gospel and spiritual/ religious). I don’t think gospel can be so narrowly defined as a genre. If you feel it you feel it and a lot is about intent. When I listen to Little Fire, Coming home To Me and Never Grow Old I don’t think gospel or religion, but if they are intended to be spiritual then that’s what they are. Soul and blues songs are naturally accepted alongside gospel. So I suppose whether I Smell A Rat is gospel can be debated, however I don’t think there is any question that it fits perfectly within DC.

Kelsea, you're absolutely right there are quite a few songs on Downtown Church (including the two originals) that would never be considered traditional gospel, but as you point out the rest do have a religious or at least spiritual feel to them. The exception is I Smell A Rat, and I guess that's why it feels a bit out of place to me -- I think it fits fine musically (blues and R&B grew largely out of gospel as genres), just not lyrically. But I'm still glad she decided to include it!

Anyway, happy to see you totally rocking out with this record the way Patty no doubt intended! I can't help but wonder how her voice will hold out when she brings this unusually demanding collection of songs on the road.
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Postby Russell » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:33 pm

keith from ny wrote:Kelsea, you're absolutely right there are quite a few songs on Downtown Church (including the two originals) that would never be considered traditional gospel, but as you point out the rest do have a religious or at least spiritual feel to them. The exception is I Smell A Rat, and I guess that's why it feels a bit out of place to me -- I think it fits fine musically (blues and R&B grew largely out of gospel as genres), just not lyrically. But I'm still glad she decided to include it!

Anyway, happy to see you totally rocking out with this record the way Patty no doubt intended! I can't help but wonder how her voice will hold out when she brings this unusually demanding collection of songs on the road.

Among the many things that make this album very enjoyable for me is that includes in a nicely flowing package several different styles of African-American gospel, several styles country gospel, a standard hymn, and two wonderful pieces of Patty gospel. Setting aside the spiritual aspect of the songs themselves, it accomplishes something that seems be the primary purpose of the album - to provide a musical collage of the foundation of popular music while displaying Patty's voice as never before. As noted in the promotional release:

You can’t get to rock ‘n’ roll or any other form of American popular music worth listening to without taking a long, deep drink from the pure waters of gospel’s golden age (roughly the decades bracketing World War II). Without savoring the drive and the anguish and the joy, the sheer undiluted joy, the certainty and the power sung out by dozens of highly competitive vocal groups. Without listening.

“I still feel like black gospel music, what’s come out of the United States from slavery, is really the foundation for almost everything that I love,” Patty says. “I’m talkin’ Beatles and everything. That, to me, is just basic. The foundation.”


In view of my failed and ill-advised effort to point out a possible deficiency in Keith's musical knowledge, I do yield to his obvious wisdom regarding "I Smell A Rat", particularly in view of this comment at the end of that same release:

Which leaves one last wildcard in the mix, an homage to Big Mama Thornton, best known for cutting Lieber & Stoller’s “Hound Dog” before Elvis. Lieber & Stoller apparently liked animal metaphors, but “I Smell A Rat” never quite achieved iconic status. (Nor, alas, did Ms. Thornton.) But it was the song Buddy played through the PA regularly so as to center his musical friends. And so…

“The band was so greasy by the end of that week,” Patty chuckles. “I wanted to do it, just to have it. I didn’t really think we would get it on the record, and Buddy said, ‘Oh, I’ll figure out a way.’ And he did. I think he also had in mind tipping the hat to skepticism. Not a bad thing to include.”


No matter, the fact that "I Smell A Rat" fits sonically does tend to show a connection between modern secular music and the gospel foundation on which it is built.

Regarding Patty-gospel, I think this (again from the same source) is telling:

Her own contributions came after listening to a goodly handful of Bob Dylan’s religious work. “Buddy sent me a lot of that stuff,” she says. “It’s just not my point of view. The songs I’m singing, I’m just interpreting someone else’s ideas, and I’m not tied to those ideas. Listening to Dylan, who’s contemporary, and who’s in my genre, if I may be so bold as to say that, I felt like I really had to write my own. And put a couple in there that feel like me.”


Although I think the overdub of Julie Miller in "Coming Home to Me" doesn't quite work for me (it seems Buddy may have been trying do what worked so incredibly well with the reversal of roles of Patty and Julie in Julie's "Don't Say Goodbye" and "I Still Cry"), I think this is a stellar album that is sonically Patty's best yet and may be significant as the stepping-stone to her still-elusive masterpiece - noting in particular the nice hint in the promotional release that Patty "wrote more" than what has been included in "Downtown Church".

As the NPR reviewer notes, for those who don't necessarily connect with the spiritual basis of most of the album, "the music is just plain good".
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Postby Russell » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:36 pm

keith from ny wrote:Kelsea, you're absolutely right there are quite a few songs on Downtown Church (including the two originals) that would never be considered traditional gospel, but as you point out the rest do have a religious or at least spiritual feel to them. The exception is I Smell A Rat, and I guess that's why it feels a bit out of place to me -- I think it fits fine musically (blues and R&B grew largely out of gospel as genres), just not lyrically. But I'm still glad she decided to include it!

Anyway, happy to see you totally rocking out with this record the way Patty no doubt intended! I can't help but wonder how her voice will hold out when she brings this unusually demanding collection of songs on the road.

Among the many things that make this album very enjoyable for me is that it includes in a nicely flowing package several different styles of African-American gospel, several styles country gospel, a standard hymn, and two wonderful pieces of Patty gospel. Setting aside the spiritual aspect of the songs themselves, it accomplishes something that seems be the primary purpose of the album - to provide a musical collage of the foundation of popular music while displaying Patty's voice as never before. As noted in the promotional release:

You can’t get to rock ‘n’ roll or any other form of American popular music worth listening to without taking a long, deep drink from the pure waters of gospel’s golden age (roughly the decades bracketing World War II). Without savoring the drive and the anguish and the joy, the sheer undiluted joy, the certainty and the power sung out by dozens of highly competitive vocal groups. Without listening.

“I still feel like black gospel music, what’s come out of the United States from slavery, is really the foundation for almost everything that I love,” Patty says. “I’m talkin’ Beatles and everything. That, to me, is just basic. The foundation.”


In view of my failed and ill-advised effort to point out a possible deficiency in Keith's musical knowledge, I do yield to his obvious wisdom regarding "I Smell A Rat", particularly in view of this comment at the end of that same release:

Which leaves one last wildcard in the mix, an homage to Big Mama Thornton, best known for cutting Lieber & Stoller’s “Hound Dog” before Elvis. Lieber & Stoller apparently liked animal metaphors, but “I Smell A Rat” never quite achieved iconic status. (Nor, alas, did Ms. Thornton.) But it was the song Buddy played through the PA regularly so as to center his musical friends. And so…

“The band was so greasy by the end of that week,” Patty chuckles. “I wanted to do it, just to have it. I didn’t really think we would get it on the record, and Buddy said, ‘Oh, I’ll figure out a way.’ And he did. I think he also had in mind tipping the hat to skepticism. Not a bad thing to include.”


No matter, the fact that "I Smell A Rat" fits sonically does tend to show a connection between modern secular music and the gospel foundation on which it is built.

Regarding Patty-gospel, I think this (again from the same source) is telling:

Her own contributions came after listening to a goodly handful of Bob Dylan’s religious work. “Buddy sent me a lot of that stuff,” she says. “It’s just not my point of view. The songs I’m singing, I’m just interpreting someone else’s ideas, and I’m not tied to those ideas. Listening to Dylan, who’s contemporary, and who’s in my genre, if I may be so bold as to say that, I felt like I really had to write my own. And put a couple in there that feel like me.”


Although the overdub of Julie Miller in "Coming Home to Me" doesn't quite work for me (it seems Buddy may have been trying do what worked so incredibly well with the reversal of roles of Patty and Julie in Julie's "Don't Say Goodbye" and "I Still Cry"), I think this is a stellar album that is sonically Patty's best yet and may be significant as the stepping-stone to her still-elusive masterpiece - noting in particular the nice hint in the promotional release that Patty "wrote more" than what has been included in "Downtown Church".

As the NPR reviewer notes, for those who don't necessarily connect with the spiritual basis of most of the album, "the music is just plain good".

(I want to add that I think the promotional release for the album is about the best I've ever run across. If you want to read it, click here. Also, click here for an interesting post on nodepression.com by the author of the release)
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Postby Turk » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:15 pm

Whether we agree or not on this record, one thing that is true of all of us is that we appreciate what a diverse and talented artist Patty is.

Something that has been happening to me over the last couple of years is that first impressions of a new album don't necessarily solidify how I may feel later on down the road. Different occasions of listening to the same music in different settings have often changed my initial impression. This has happened with Neko's Middle Cyclone and Lu's Little Honey.

It's very possible that I will have an 'aha moment' (thanks, Bruce) with Downtown Church. And if I'm lucky, there will be several.
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Postby marybeth » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:27 pm

I'll second you on that Turk. I find the truth for me about an album is whether I'm still listening years on.
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Postby Arlene » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:33 pm

Yet again, I agree with Turk. There are several ablums I didn't particularly like on first hearing which later grew to be among my all-time favorites-- Emmylou's Wrecking Ball is one that comes immediately to mind.

Also, saying Downtown Church is my least favorite Patty Griffin album is akin to saying its my least favorite Jane Austen novel. Persuasion is my least favorite Jane Austen novel, but it's still among my 100 favorite novels of all time!
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